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"Look at all the wars caused by atheists! Look at Hitler or Stalin!" Insert Pol Pot, China and even North Korea depending on the person.
A statement brought up so many times I have to point out some differences that should be pointed out when someone brings them up. A poster on another thread had a statement similar though he had a fresher premise than the bland one above. He said plunder (ie. rape, enslavement and land) were the PRIME factors in these conflicts
For the leaders? Maybe. Shit, it's even probable. But the people? They did not they kill in the name of their non-deity. The same argument has been used time and time again, each time shot down by the same point, that none of those atrocities were done because of their fervent NON-belief.
And yes, look to Darfur! Look to the Crusades! Look at the ganglands of LA or Miami! Look to the slavery of Africans or the slaughter of the Indians! Look at the Israeli conflinct! Look at the laws of Islam!
You will find that some greedy men behind the scenes orchestrated many events for personal gain in some cases. But one single factor do each use? To motivate the masses? They don't say you want to be rich! You want land! No, these are to blatent to offer to the common man and he would easily deduce them to be morally wrong. How about "god wants you to (insert horrible act here)!"; he wants you to "convert the heathens or poison/kill/hang/burn them to do gods work!"...... and keep some land and rape some women while you are at it. Even look at our own little Iraq war, our morals and the peoples belief that they do gods work is the motivation. Are our troops getting plunder? Are they joining for the thrill of rape? I know when I went, the chaplains came to, the president said god was on our side, generals said our god was stronger than theirs and everyone viewed their god as an obvious false god while our invisible friend was the real deal! The leaders? Who sit in their private, huge secluded homes, protected from any harm and pleasures just a call away? Who stands to gain? Am I saying there is a conspiracy or am I simply agreeing with the statement the poster made about war being a mask for personal gain? Am I above it? Nah, I went for personal gain myself, free college, new experiences, a chance to see the world. Theirs is just much grander is all. But then again I was pretty much alone in my division on Sundays while deployed, No jews with me on Saturday either. The chaplain came a knocking every so on as well. While I'll admit I am a shitbag, most religious people where their beliefs as a 'mask' to quote him, a shield to hide behind, my like they hide behind when faced with the harsh truths that their religion is as likely than Humpty Dumpty. Hell, the kings horses could most likely have an easier time that an almighty would raising a corpse that is three days dead or making a man out of mud. Eggs are as likely to talk as snakes and pigs right?
Often there doesn't even need to be a religious maker to have a conflict, the State is god. Even in China, where the State is god or in North Korea where the leader is god or even in Japan circa half a century ago where the Emporer was god, belief in some creator is required. And even then, the masses nurse belief. No, there is not one single case (or there might be, but I haven't heard of it) of where a leader, used non-belief in a deity to motivate the populace of his nation to commit atrocities or make them rush to there certain deaths knowing and believing it was a total extinguishing of their life/soul.
The Stalin/Pol Pot routine has gotten old and while it is fresh and debatable what the motives of the leaders were in other religious events mentioned, it does not work either as a rebuttal. Yes religion is often a mask. It ALWAYS is. Thats why the morals of each god, just happen to mirror the ones who believes in them.
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Posted by freethinker on 2008-07-08 12:30:42 | Rating: | Views: 195
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A Non-belief in god as a justification for a war, perhaps there has never been one.....however, let us think.... Inspired thus, there not has been a war of anti-relgion, but to equate the sum reasoning behind an individuals Crusading in the name of their god, is erroneous and certainly a small portion of the indviduals who wage a war thus motivated. Certainly a few zealots are motivated purely by god- but again, Hitler motivated his entire populace not by god, but by ethnic and national pride. But again, an example of atheism as the reason for killing- yes there has been an extermination by atheists, based on fervent atheism: in China. Yes it was not a 'war', it was an extermination. Communist China banned relgion and oppressed practicioners, up to and including killing them, in an effort to STOP relgiocity. So, if you are seeking a scenario where atheism was used as dogma against the religious, you have one. It may not have been a war, but it was inspired by atheism and anti-diety values. If you are looking for small scale reasonings of atheism, then the twentieth century gives us many examples of atheism inspired violence, there have even been murderers inspired by atheistic values, expressedly nihilistic, to commit atrocities. Fervorent atheists.
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Posted by bloodintheeyes
on 2008-07-08 13:05:54
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as an aside, and i do so despite the fact that this is an argument styled debate, i think you requirement of an atheist inspired war or wars or killing is .... slighty biased. who is to say that wars perpetrated under the banner of religion, whether if fact that is the case, are carried out by truly pious or even believers? the reasons to kill another or commit evil.... who is to say that simply because a person Says they are doing it for a religious reason, does not follow that in their heart or mind they are simply doing it because they want to. Mother Teresa's letters prove that even such a pious devotee has doubts. What one proclaims and what one believes are not necessarily equal.
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Posted by bloodintheeyes
on 2008-07-08 13:19:17
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Working, can't post much but look into the Hitler part. Nationalism was a factor to be sure but religion and doing gods work was just as much a factor. Read Hitler's writings or his speeches and most importantly, read other prominent Nazi figures using religion and the fact that they did gods work in their speeches to the populace.
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Posted by freethinker
on 2008-07-08 17:48:08
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working....ah the joys of employment. Nazism had its on cult to be sure, teh entire SS was based on Christian/Pagan doctrine. Indiana Jones was based heavily on this concept- the Ananabwe or some such shyt like that. But, the masses were not motivated by these beliefs, in fact Hitler and his inner circle kept this stuff on the DL, mostly because he did NOT want to come off as a religous nut.
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Posted by bloodintheeyes
on 2008-07-08 19:47:24
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i dont think atheist are the only ones to blame...look at how many wars were caused by religious people. its ging on now, and it was always present in the past (the crusades, etc...). i think religion is one of the causes for war. Its ridiculous. people are like freaking sheep. you tell them to go one way, they'll go. tell them to go the other way they'll go without even thinking. the crusades is the best example. all those people were fooled into thinking they were going to be delivered of their sins if they went to fight. I mean, REALLY????!!!!! it takes nothing to convince people, when it comes to religion. They are so gullible. I'm not going to believe in ay of this shit. if their is a god, ill see it for myself when im dead. I heard this sentence by an archbishop which i thought was very interesting...he said, "you are foolish to believe there isn't a God, and you are foolish to believe there is one." Worth thinking about.
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Posted by j21
on 2008-07-10 08:22:32
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Ummmm, That's the premise of my blog with a few exceptions from your post. That although people often participate in conflicts for gain on a subconsious level, religion is what makes them feel they are doing it for moral reasons and for a greater good.
Atheism and non belief isn't a motivator but religion and the view that their 'god' not only approves their actions but wants them to do it IS a motivator.
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Posted by freethinker
on 2008-07-10 11:09:13
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so often, in this "religion is the root of all evil, or at least at the heart of all wars" debate, there is a blatant oversight, on the intitiator's part, to calculate the rationale or sanity level of the perpetrators (leaders) they're using as evidence for their "opinions."
Stalin, Hitler...really? Is not the factor that they were slightly WACKED even considered here? Jim Jones, David Koresh...same concept. Can't you see, freethinker, that these folks were a little screwy, yet with enough intellect to know that in order to aquire a following, they'd have to present themselves in somewhat of a divine light? It's not that people are JUST simply gullible, but we are spiritual beings, seeking the Divine. Couldn't it be that there are other forces working in these leaders? And no, I'm not talking about some kind of ghostly possession, but, assuming you believe in what is good and what is bad, the element of what is "bad" is aware of how the "good" operates, which would allow for counterfiets to materialize. And yes, people have fallen for it just like sheep, because they didn't spend enough time getting to know the voice of their Shepherd!
Those who, like bloodintheeyes has mentioned, are using their "religion" with evil intentions are more deserving of the descriptor "delusional" than those who have tried to share their personal experience of God with you. Not to be mean, but maybe if you spent some time investigating the validity of those claims, instead of throwing God out with Hitler's bath water, you might discover the point between where true religion begins and where the tangent of man drew it askew. I guess I just don't understand why we give these frauds, with apparent mental instability, ANY kind of credence...let alone use them as the molds for which to cast an opinion.
I don't consider it very "free thinking" to incite this age old arguement based solely on these monoliths of war, who also, btw, considered themselves to be free thinkers :( more than they called themselves religious.
-but that's just my opinion-paperlily
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Posted by paperlily
on 2008-07-28 23:41:16
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Ahh but I agree. I think the leaders in question were delusional at the least and insane at the worst. BUT the premise of life eternal, of a god who loves us and most importantly, a god who speaks through a MAN who then convinces thousands, often millions of people in the name of their religion to commit these acts does indeed place it at the feet of said religion.
Sure they are sheep, almost all of us are in some way. But almost all of us buy into the idea of an afterlife. The thought of death, no life after, no seeing loved ones again, game over is too much for us to bear. So here is where the religions and the 'crazy', misled, delusional or even insane people come in and then when the masses buy into it, I can lay it on the feet of the religion. If people stopped and said, wait a minute, that makes no sense and all you are is a good public speaker then the leader factor would be out the window. It is unforunate that it goes hand in hand with the need to believe in an afterlife. As long as that need remains, someone will claim to have the answer and that person will always have people, massive groups of people, that listen.
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Posted by freethinker
on 2008-07-29 00:18:54
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ok, so you've now broken it down to the need to believe in an afterlife. That's what comes first according to your proposal. With that being the case, it's the peoples' fault then. you said it yourself..."if people stopped and said wait a minute, this makes no sense and all you are is a good public speaker..."
Well, besides the fact that Hitler used very little religious fanaticism, and more national pride, propaganda, and fear instillation; the buying into this idea of an afterlife does not always equate to mass murder, rape and plunder. The love for God is SO much more than just a quest for some kind of eternal placation.
I'll once again say that it's not religion, generalized and broad, as the culprit; rather what MAN has done with it as an ends to a means.Indeed this does NOT place the blame at religion's feet, becuase these ideas( that there is a God who loves us, that He can speak thru a man, that there is life eternal) are being strained thru the filter of a MADMAN'S eyes, and then MUST be tainted. It's also the hordes of followers who did not spend enough time getting to know God's voice, but rather wanted a quick fix answer, desiring someone right there in the flesh to be their savior. Unfortunate, yes, but indicitive that we ARE spiritual beings seeking the Divine. Would we not be better placed to focus on the actors in this play, not just rip up the Playbill? Why do these people get off without the brunt of the blame?
Here's a somewhat silly analogy. When Jeffrey Dahmer murdered, then ate his victims, not once in our analysis did we say, "oh, it's that darn desire to consume food that's at work here. just look at all the other, more benign problems eating has caused...obesity and it's friend low self-esteem, it's pure evil how it morphs into anorexia, not to mention that sneaky heart disease directly linked to diet. Eating is a silent killer, I can't believe no one has noticed before now...it must be stopped!"...um, I don't think so. It would be absurd to attempt to abolish something so much a part of our human structure, because of what people have done to twist or abuse it. And just like I don't think the need to eat is going to diminish, the need to connect with the Divine will always remain. Simply because we were designed that way. Until people recognize and accept this fact (in turn pursuing an honest relationship w/ Him) there will always be fakes and frauds who will sway a restless people. There will always be people looking for heaven on earth, whether in drug form or mind screws, whether existential or transcendental, we were CREATED that way! but it's our responsibility not to succumb to the first wolf in sheeps' clothing that comes along (even the ones preaching "peace", even the ones that make us feel really good).
You seem to think the world would've been/would be a better place if all of us "after-life seekers" would just come to their senses and realize there is NOTHING after death. Hmmmmm, don't you think that might propagate a generalized thought process which would be counterproductive to civilization? Not that avoiding this outcome is THE only reason for religion's injection into our society, but if it works to placate a "do want you want cuz there's nothing afterwards" mentality then I'll suffer the occasional attack that us religious folk are deluded freaks and religion caused every war. I'd rather be a freak who has ties to this "wicked regime" than a citizen to states of total anarchy. At whose feet would you place the blame then? Could it be Man's?
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Posted by paperlily
on 2008-07-29 14:43:20
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Total Anarchy? I doubt not believing in the afterlife would hardly cause that. I would never advocate that and I would never consider non-belief would cause that. It is a misconception of people who are religious that non-believers have no morals and therefore no guidelines to live by. Besides being insulting, it is wrong and is actually quite ironic because the same logic states that if you didn't have the 'rules' laid out for you to follow, you would be out committing adultry, stealing donkeys and killing each day. And no, I do not think it would be counter productive for people to use common sense, I think it would make them appreciate this life better, each day would a new day where anything could happen. The Dahmner comment isn't worth mentioning because you could throw out just as many crazies and crazier people than that (like the shooter at the church who thought it was to liberal). I get what you were getting at, I just don't think it was an apt analogy.
Since I know there is no god, the quotes about his LOVE for man, what MAN has done with his holy work, etc. And I didn't say all people who are leaders of men who believe in this wizard behind the curtain were madmen. Some are good people but just plainly wrong and do not have the ability to doubt or even question certain aspects of their faith. And yes. Nationalism was a HUGE part of Hitler's agenda, but the Holocaust was religion driven and many of the troops felt they were doing gods work. Nationalism to any extreme is just as dangerous as extreme religion, you are correct about that.
I am not saying we would be in some utopia if religion was abolished and the idea of an afterlife was no longer considered. We are after all just evolved animals when it comes down to it and of course there will always be conflict, but if history is to be considered, there would be far less conflicts if we all agreed on one thing, that there is no god, no miracles, no magic and no prayers to be answered. We might wage wars on politics, nationalism etc. but not about who has the srongest and most powerful god.
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Posted by freethinker
on 2008-07-29 17:15:44
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paperlily you have very well, formed and emotionally resonate replies: excellent arguments. a pleasure.
Freethinker: "Since I know there is no god," i wonder if you could elaborate on this ... outcome and please prove the lines of inquiry and scientific steps you have undertaken and performed, so that you can enlighten the rest of us as to this ... truth. Please, after, thousands of years of questioning, tell me how it is that you, in Your infinite wisdom have reached this 100% affirmation on the negative of the existance of a supreme being.
oh yeah, and really, to say freethinking and use as your image Tyler, well.. thats kinda insulting to the movie. i doubt you have tested yourself as much, nor have a truly open mind as the incarnation of the character portrayed. just an opinion.
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Posted by bloodintheeyes
on 2008-07-29 21:01:41
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Just to clear my name,I was making no presumption that those without a faith in a Creator live a life devoid of morals, values and/or standards. Even when God was absent in my life, due to my ignorance, I still lived by a self-made code of ethics. It would be a false assumption on your part to lump me into your pile of preconceived notions.
I am open to the thinking that says many wars have been and are fought in the NAME of religion, but here is where I feel compeled to add a few key details that are being left out which might incline one to better analyize the opinions that you are formulating.
Listen, we have free will. The true irony is that whether the "rules" are laid out or not, certain people are going to do want they want.
I wager that you believe we are three part beings, correct? You are comprised of body, soul, and spirit. Each of these components need fed. I'll not go into a whole "intelligent design" presentation (phew, saith freethinker), but as we've coursed thru our humanity, is it not clear that whether we've been typically a people who crave to believe in something eternal or whether we would have mapped our history without a single thought being "wasted" on such "triviality", we STILL have inate desires to be loved and valued. And we STILL would have the potential for that desire to manifest into the travesties which have since been plotted.
Man will always have the capacity to commit evils. (that stands alone)
But, your comment that those who THOUGHT they were committing deeds which were pre-approved by their "diety" had THIS life in mind, not their afterlife. Hitler's regime didn't think they were doing God's work, they were power and fear driven. They were using a tainted version of Christianity, anyway, TOTALLY fabricated by their leader; a warped ripoff from Hinduism which spoke of a legendary Aryian race from the Himalayas. This mythical group was said to be the original/first of the earth's inhabitants. Hitler ran with this and thought he could recreate this "pure" geneology, but twisted its ideal in his lust for fame; changed what would've been black hair/dark eyes and skin to its counterpart. If anyone who was involved with this was really in tune with anything divine, the MANY holes in this block of cheese should have been spotted.
And, the appeal to the masses was not just about them wanting to believe in an afterlife, in fact believing in God is about SO much more than that. I guess I could insert what a common misconception that is among those who don't believe in Him, but I won't be presumptious.
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Posted by paperlily
on 2008-07-30 20:42:50
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Paper, you would be wrong in assuming that we have three 'beings', the spirit, soul and body. Ironically (as prior poster questioned why I chose Tyler as an avatar), my belief is pretty much what my avatar would say "You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake, you are the same decaying organic matter as everything else". No spirit, no soul.... just a lifeform with higher (that we know of) level of thought and awareness of all the other lifeforms. We are not special, we just view ourselves as being so. Pressed for time, again, so I'll deal with the conflicts thing another time although I think we both know where we stand.
blood, I, in my 'inifinite wisdom' know there is no god the same way I know there is no Santa Claus climbing down chimneys,no tooth fairy dropping off dollar bills for teeth and Elvis isn't alive and fat in some hiding place. I don't need to explain why I have 100% proof there is a god. I, personally have not only NOT seen evidence of a creator, but I have seen countless evidence of there NOT being one. But I know I am not some special authority on the subject so disagree if you think differently. As far as the avatar choice goes, if you have read the book or seen, really seen the movie, I think the character of Tyler Durden embodies my beliefs, or lack of more than any other character. I think the system we have is broken, I have no solution but I don't think following the rules is what we should do. I haven't gone as far as blowing up all the major credit card companies buildings nor formed a cult of some kind to help destroy the broken system we have now. But the idea seems nice... But like the character says " I say let me never be content, I say let me never be complete". Much of the way the character looks at the world echoes my perspective. And never being complete and admitting it, is freethinking. Always learning and never being complete and unique. And you would be suprised at some of the things I have done 'testing' myself.... hardly bragging or even saying I have done anything amazing, just saying you have no idea of what I have done or who I am, so don't assume too much ;)
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Posted by freethinker
on 2008-08-03 12:25:24
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respect der freethinker- but not to burst da bubble on fight club; it was kinda a metaphor to a lifestyle....umm...the homosexual lifestyle. all those men and everythang....tyler was the bisex side of the main character....yeah all that antisociety stuff was important, but da core o da filme was kinda...gay people...still, it is one of my favorite movies of all time. cheers mate. keep on keepin' on.
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Posted by bloodintheeyes
on 2008-08-16 07:52:08
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lol. Hardly gay. Is that before he realized he was fucking Marla Singer or after? Sure Chuck is gay, I have met him and he does not, is not at all the flamboyant homosexual and there is a slight undertone of it as it suggests we really don't need women. The under tone of society, the way life is lived now, the worker ant mentality, the dependancy we have on material things among other behavior traits we either need to break free of or at least recognize they there is the main idea of it. The think for yourself and don't live by trends or according to what the normal laws of good conduct, that is what I grab a hold of.
And I could care less if a gay guy wrote it. Doesn't change a thing ;)
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Posted by freethinker
on 2008-08-17 12:31:37
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And if that sounded terse, it's not.
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Posted by freethinker
on 2008-08-17 12:33:19
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