View Full Version : Governor Christi and his praise for Rush Limbaugh
I was watching "Morning Joe" ( I confess) this morning and the Governor of Florida was asked about Rush Limbaugh and he was quick to say how much they loved him. I am a bit confused so, please enlightened me. I constantly hear how Republicans and Conservatives uphold the "values" of this country and the Liberals are destroying it. I keep hearing how God is so important to Republicans and how morals means so much and they feel that the moral decline can be planted at the foot of the Democrats or Liberals. AND yet I hear these same people many times (I confess I listen to a lot of conservative and liberal radio station--I like hearing how people think) say that the Rush Limbaughs are the pillar of the earth. I am so CONFUSED.
Now first let me note that I recognize that Governor Christi is well received by both parties and I will acknowledge that but how can a Governor of ANY state applaud the outrageous conduct of Operation Chaos that is diabolically opposed to democracy?
I don't care who they are or what their popularity rating are----this is wrong wrong wrong ---did I say WRONG!
I am baffled when people who are preoccupied with flag pins and say they love democracy and then gives consent by not denoucing this behavior but to the contrary --smile at the "lovable Limbaugh."
What do loving this country means? Somebody tell me what makes this country so great as oppose to the other "peasant countries" in the world? Is is not the fact that we say that we are a country of principles --that we believe in Freedoms and will support the perpetuating of freedom to be involved in democracy the very foundation of this country? Is is not our embracing of the Constitution of the United States and our desire to strive to live out the meaning of these brillant standards?
Perhaps I am suffering from a different desire for America. Perhaps I am too analytical and really do love democracy beyond a flag pin and actually believe that true democracy must be lifted off the pages of the Constitution and deeply rooted and embedded into the citizens of this Nation.
For the life of me--I can not fathom how anyone who would tamper with the principles of the flag and document of liberty--could be deemed lovable.
*For clarity purposes --I must add that Governor Christi did not say he agreed with Operation Chaos but when asked about Limbaugh--he said "we love him here in Florida."
rocky5544
05-08-2008, 08:42 AM
Why is what Rush did Un-American. How is it any different than what the politicians do each and every minute of their own contest. They all go to extreme measures to sway the populus using any tactics allowed. And how is it any different that the dem jocks who called for mass democrat voting for McCain. This is politics. And if anyone really believes that Rush is able to sway the vote, well than have fun in that mind universe. Crossing over to vote for the perceived weakest link of the other party is something that has been used by both parties for many years. Just because a well known republican is calling for it now does not mean he is the only one. Many democrats called for the voting of Bush in the 2000 elections due to the misbelief he could not beat Gore do to his fathers defeat by Clinton, but it backfired for them. This election it is being called for Obama. But as I said before, it is not a new tactic nor is it a Republican only tactic.
Trying to make Rush or any other American keep quite because you do not like what he says is the real Un-American thing. If Rush is able to sway people to change their views just because he says too, simply means they had no real values to begin with or they have simple minds. Either way, they should not vote! Obama, Clinton, or McCain will win or loose based on who pulls the most electorate votes, not because Rush wants them too!
So quite frankly, ever American has a right to vote as they please. If they feel a vote for Clinton will ensure that their choice in McCain wins, that is their right. That is not a violation of our democracy, it is in fact democracy in its grandor. Rush also has a right to do whatever it takes, within the confines of the law, to make sure the politicians he is against does not win. That is what makes our country great and not another Cuba or Venenzuala. Every American has a right and an obligation to stand for their party and do whatever it takes to win as long as they do not violate the law. Rush is powerful, but not God. He ultimately will not affect the final decision of the people. He is no different in his agenda and actions than anyone else with a position like his. The only difference is that he is republican and others are democrat. He only does what so many others before him have done and what many others in the other party are doing now!
Why is what Rush did Un-American. How is it any different than what the politicians do each and every minute of their own contest. They all go to extreme measures to sway the populus using any tactics allowed. And how is it any different that the dem jocks who called for mass democrat voting for McCain. This is politics. And if anyone really believes that Rush is able to sway the vote, well than have fun in that mind universe. Crossing over to vote for the perceived weakest link of the other party is something that has been used by both parties for many years. Just because a well known republican is calling for it now does not mean he is the only one. Many democrats called for the voting of Bush in the 2000 elections due to the misbelief he could not beat Gore do to his fathers defeat by Clinton, but it backfired for them. This election it is being called for Obama. But as I said before, it is not a new tactic nor is it a Republican only tactic.
Trying to make Rush or any other American keep quite because you do not like what he says is the real Un-American thing. If Rush is able to sway people to change their views just because he says too, simply means they had no real values to begin with or they have simple minds. Either way, they should not vote! Obama, Clinton, or McCain will win or loose based on who pulls the most electorate votes, not because Rush wants them too!
Hello rocky5544:
I do believe in freedom of speech and with every freedom is a built in responsibility --for instance--I can not go into movie theater and holler fire if indeed there is no fire. I think our willingness to accept politics as usual is the core problem in this country. If we keep accepting this as the NORM it will continue to be the norm. I have higher goals to reach for my own life and although many times I fall short of these objectives --I still strive toward these goals. The day I stop--would be a day of tragedy for my own self worth.
It is Un-American to interfere with democracy--Rush is a well known radio host and he has his "loyal followers" and believe it or not ---there were evidence (in Ohio in particular) where some of these over zealous followers might be facing legal charges for apparently in Ohio prior to changing one's party--you are required to take an oath and when it was determined that some republicans --took an oath and then went back to change back to republican--they are conducting an investigation into these violations--for they lied under oath. This is the only state to my knowledge that requires its citizens to take an oath of allegiance to a particular party when registering democrat or republican.
I do not care if it is a democrat or republican that participate in this kind of interruption of democracy-----it is wrong. Whether one is a liberal or conservative does not make it any more acceptable to me. Rush Limbaugh calling for riots in the streets in this violent world is unacceptable and unamerican AND I have no problem attaching this label to him. Anyone of any persuasion that endorse or encourage violence in a violent world is WRONG. It is not a laughing matter or a joke. It is unacceptable to me And UnAmerican.
GhostOfDerekD0min0
05-08-2008, 09:16 AM
The freedom for anyone to conduct an "Operation Chaos" is one of the things that make this country great, and the Operation itself is pure democracy in motion.
GhostOfDerekD0min0
05-08-2008, 09:24 AM
It is Un-American to interfere with democracy--Rush is a well known radio host and he has his "loyal followers"
Unless we're talking about another entertainment mogul's attempt to influence the election, Oprah's endorsement of BarACK O-ba-MAH. Quite American of her, since she chose the "correct" candidate to support.
The freedom for anyone to conduct an "Operation Chaos" is one of the things that make this country great, and the Operation itself is pure democracy in motion.
So, if this is perfectly alright and well within our borders of freedom--then why do this same country denounce and condemn other countries for participating in "altered democracy" that pretend a honest contest is taking place? We have no right to condemn and invade countries for the arrogant and hypocritical notion that "democracy" is worth dying for. We have no right to send soldiers to die to prevent other countries for manipulating with their process of election --when we have embraced this " brand of democracy" that is less blantant than theirs.
I gather from your statement that if any group or person who has impact on others --if they decide to call for riots in the streets it is perfectly "American" huh? What about a Hitler like character? A Louis Farrakah like character? A David Duke like character? An Al Sharpton like character? All this is acceptable and all of this is so AMERICAN. I disagree! It is one thing to call for marches for justice and another thing to call for riots. I make a great distinction whether others do or not.
Unless we're talking about another entertainment mogul's attempt to influence the election, Oprah's endorsement of BarACK O-ba-MAH. Quite American of her, since she chose the "correct" candidate to support.
When did Oprah tell others to deliberately go and cast a vote for another candidate for the purpose of upseting the Republican party. I must have missed her show that day. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone endorsing a particular candidate. This is perfectly American and this is why President Bush endorsed Mccain---John Kerry endorse Obama and Govenor Rendall endorse Clinton and celebrities has come out on all sides to endorse their particular candidate of choice. Absolutely American--it ceases to be American when they seek to manipulate or deliberately tries to impede democracy by deliberate actions that are even considered against the law in the state of Ohio. I guess it is perfectly fine to take an oath and lie which many of the republicans did as enlisted by Limbaugh to switch parties. Watch out America --for at least back in the day we pretended to have standards.
* And I take issue with your premise that Oprah chose the "correct" candidate to support. What do you mean by "correct" candidate? What constitutes "correctness" according to you? I am for Obama after he had personally earned my respect --which resulted in the natural procession of endorsing him as the candidate of my choice based on reasons that I normally use to decide whether I would endorse a particular candidate. The same identical process was used. The same measuring ruler was applied. This is not my first endorsement of a candidate and I have voted in past elections and do not based conclusive deductions based on topics according to whether someone had endorse the "correct" candidate and this you can take to the bank and receive dividends with interest.
GhostOfDerekD0min0
05-08-2008, 10:00 AM
So, if this is perfectly alright and well within our borders of freedom--then why do this same country denounce and condemn other countries for participating in "altered democracy" that pretend a honest contest is taking place?
It's the difference between influencing an election by putting forth an idea, versus a rifle barrel.
GhostOfDerekD0min0
05-08-2008, 10:08 AM
When did Oprah tell others to deliberately go and cast a vote for another candidate for the purpose of upseting the Republican party. I must have missed her show that day. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone endorsing a particular candidate. This is perfectly American and this is why President Bush endorsed Mccain---John Kerry endorse Obama and Govenor Rendall endorse Clinton and celebrities has come out on all sides to endorse their particular candidate of choice. Absolutely American--it ceases to be American when they seek to manipulate or deliberately tries to impede democracy by deliberate actions that are even considered against the law in the state of Ohio. I guess it is perfectly fine to take an oath and lie which many of the republicans did as enlisted by Limbaugh to switch parties. Watch out America --for at least back in the day we pretended to have standards.
Fanning the flames of chaos within the Dem process was a smart strategy to ensure McCain in the general election. Help the opposition to implode. If the Repubs put themselves in a position to allow the Dems to do that, it would be an equally smart move to make, however moot since somehow Repubs developed a workable candidate selection process.
"Standards back in the day - - ?" I take it you found your rose-colored glasses buried deep in the back of your junk drawer this morning?
Fanning the flames of chaos within the Dem process was a smart strategy to ensure McCain in the general election. Help the opposition to implode. If the Repubs put themselves in a position to allow the Dems to do that, it would be an equally smart move to make, however moot since somehow Repubs developed a workable candidate selection process.
"Standards back in the day - - ?" I take it you found your rose-colored glasses buried deep in the back of your junk drawer this morning?
We did pretend to have standards back in the day--I never said we did---a lot of Americans simply pretended. As one who embrace authenticity--perhaps I should rejoice that we can now acknowledge how unimportant these principles are to us in this generation.
GhostOfDerekD0min0
05-08-2008, 10:37 AM
Don't go getting depressed just because things don't go your way...
rocky5544
05-08-2008, 11:23 AM
So, if this is perfectly alright and well within our borders of freedom--then why do this same country denounce and condemn other countries for participating in "altered democracy" that pretend a honest contest is taking place? We have no right to condemn and invade countries for the arrogant and hypocritical notion that "democracy" is worth dying for. We have no right to send soldiers to die to prevent other countries for manipulating with their process of election --when we have embraced this " brand of democracy" that is less blantant than theirs.
I gather from your statement that if any group or person who has impact on others --if they decide to call for riots in the streets it is perfectly "American" huh? What about a Hitler like character? A Louis Farrakah like character? A David Duke like character? An Al Sharpton like character? All this is acceptable and all of this is so AMERICAN. I disagree! It is one thing to call for marches for justice and another thing to call for riots. I make a great distinction whether others do or not.
I think you are either confusing what happens here, or are trying to compare what happens here as the same as lets say Cuba.
Forcing one to vote is not the same as what is going on here. Nor is removing any other candidates votes out of the box so you could win. Nothing like this is comparable to what Rush wants.
Speaking out in earnest against Obama does not even come close to what happens in other elections. Now when Rush gets the power to actually decide who wins through voter minipulation, force, deciet, changing votes, putting votes in that were never cast, then compare it to those other elections. Until then you are grasping at straws and comparing things that are not even in the same catagory.
We know you are a democrat and love Obama. But what Rush is doing is no different than what has been happening in every election for many years. I for one enjoy the fact we have this kind of bantor in our elections. I want choice and i want to see all the skeletons they have hidden. If certain people live in such a small world that they only vote for who rush, colmes, or any other jock tells them to vote for, then oh well. We have the best system in the world even with all its flaws and Rush will not decide who wins, we will!
As far as the riots, oh well. Please do not act as if every party has used it. I have heard threats of riots coming from the Obama camp and the clinton camp. Again if a person goes to the streets because someone tells them too, lock them up for life and be done with it. And since he made it very clear to all who listened it was nothing more than empty bantor and anologies, his "call" for riots is absurd. But there are many who actually do, Sharpton, jackson, etc. There is a huge difference between anology and actual calls for riots, and this case is far from actuall calls to riot.
Rush said and did what he felt was needed for his party, and they ALL do! Cry a river for everything if you feel it is so wrong, but do not pace blame on one man when they are all doing it in one way or another. So far Rush has done nothing to break the law or prevent an honest election. Crossover was going on long before Rush spoke his first word on the radio and will continue long after he is retired. And it is done by both parties equally!
Destroying the honest election is far from what is going on today with Rush and others. They are instead keeping it American. They are doing exactly what they need to be doing! And that is making the three running keep up with their P's and Q's. I for one, along with many others, find it fascinating!
Don't go getting depressed just because things don't go your way...
I do not seek things to go my way but I do believe in democracy and perhaps my views on democracy is different than most. :)
I think you are either confusing what happens here, or are trying to compare what happens here as the same as lets say Cuba.
Forcing one to vote is not the same as what is going on here. Nor is removing any other candidates votes out of the box so you could win. Nothing like this is comparable to what Rush wants.
Speaking out in earnest against Obama does not even come close to what happens in other elections. Now when Rush gets the power to actually decide who wins through voter minipulation, force, deciet, changing votes, putting votes in that were never cast, then compare it to those other elections. Until then you are grasping at straws and comparing things that are not even in the same catagory.
We know you are a democrat and love Obama. But what Rush is doing is no different than what has been happening in every election for many years. I for one enjoy the fact we have this kind of bantor in our elections. I want choice and i want to see all the skeletons they have hidden. If certain people live in such a small world that they only vote for who rush, colmes, or any other jock tells them to vote for, then oh well. We have the best system in the world even with all its flaws and Rush will not decide who wins, we will!
As far as the riots, oh well. Please do not act as if every party has used it. I have heard threats of riots coming from the Obama camp and the clinton camp. Again if a person goes to the streets because someone tells them too, lock them up for life and be done with it. And since he made it very clear to all who listened it was nothing more than empty bantor and anologies, his "call" for riots is absurd. But there are many who actually do, Sharpton, jackson, etc. There is a huge difference between anology and actual calls for riots, and this case is far from actuall calls to riot.
Rush said and did what he felt was needed for his party, and they ALL do! Cry a river for everything if you feel it is so wrong, but do not pace blame on one man when they are all doing it in one way or another. So far Rush has done nothing to break the law or prevent an honest election. Crossover was going on long before Rush spoke his first word on the radio and will continue long after he is retired. And it is done by both parties equally!
Destroying the honest election is far from what is going on today with Rush and others. They are instead keeping it American. They are doing exactly what they need to be doing! And that is making the three running keep up with their P's and Q's. I for one, along with many others, find it fascinating!
Hello rocky5544:
I had to register as a democrat to cast my vote for Obama because I am from Pennsylvania and independents are not allowed to vote in the primary. I plan to return to the independent ticket once this election is over with for I like the ideal of no allegiance to any of the traditional parties for I have problems with both parties and this frees me from having to adopt all there idealogy and I can maintain flexibility as a conservative moderate liberal. :)
For the record though--I don't embrace either parties that participate in behavior like this for I honestly do think it is unamerican --I don't just say this to cause controversy--I wholeheartedly without a skip in the beat of my soul believes this.
I don't like dirty politics and long for the day when candidates stand up and say vote for me because------and bring forth their great ideas that is emerging from the core of their character without trying to deliberately assassinate their opponent. For it is one thing to bring forth contrast and it is quite another to generate political spin. As a citizen of this country--I personally find it insulting to us-- the constituients of this great nation of where our "leaders" love to motivate us out of fear and manipulations and as long as we respond to their whims we will continue to get spin and strategy that has more to do with a football game than the running of this country. Although it is indeed a contest--it is far from a game for as we witnessed with this current adminstration--even if well intentioned or deliberately ignoring valid advice from anyone that disagreed with his agenda--our sons and daughters blood is spilled in the streets of Iraq. I want a president that speak with candor and honesty that respect the fact that the American citizen has a brain and is capable of rational thinking. Don't bring us gimmicks no matter how often it is used--we are living in a time where this should not be tolerated by the American people. Don't tell us that we will have a gas holiday that the candidates KNOW without a shadow of doubt it will not pass --every economist declared it economically unsound and harmful to the consumer --US (the American people)--and that it will eventually be more fodder for the oil company and gives us, the American people a dangling carrot as if we are stuck on stupid --I maintain that we the citizens of this country are NOT.
I respect what you are saying about Cuba--no we are not Cuba ---yet. Please understand there is nothing that separates all mankind as much as we seek division by race, creed ethnicity, religion or any other category that immune us from being or becoming evil. The American Flag only have significance if we embrace the principle of the flag--if we are complacent and uncommitted to its meaning--it does not matter if we have our clothing made out of the flag--the flag is a piece of cloth until we the American people brings it to life and spirit by endorsing and embracing it within us. It is a mere symbol that can be reduced to a sign that has no meaning if we are not careful. Great nations has fallen because it has lost its significance and thought that all it had to do ---was BE.
We should never take for granted what this country stand for whether it falls short or not --and we should be forever committed to provoking it to a higher ground always. WE can not participate in torture of people and still maintain a moral position in the world. We can not survive as a nation on our past efforts for it is where we are going in the future that will ultimately defines us. Remember history--Egypt once upon a time was a powerful nation and a force to be reckon with---and then she lost her position in the world.
WE can not suspend fundametal principles for there are nothing that prevents us from being evil like anybody else in this world. A Christian can murder in the name of God just like a muslim if he loses his moral connection to God. If you don't believe me --look at history and see how much blood was spilled in a ruthless way under the guise of doing a work for "God." I am a Christian and I acknowledge this truth. We love to think that somehow our being Americans or any other category (race, creed, religion, or ethnicity) somehow removes us from doing barbarics acts against others---I happen to believe that the only thing that keeps any people or country from dwindling into the darkest corner of life--is that we nip things in the bud and prevent it from growing into something that we will not be able to recognize later on in future generations. The only thing that stops anyone from being a "Hitler" or dictatorship is one's ideas---and principles --nothing else. Not even the Flag.
GhostOfDerekD0min0
05-08-2008, 03:31 PM
Nice post, SRD ... couple of things ... one, I can sleep peacefully at night knowing I never committed barbaric acts on another, and that it is also not the accepted practice of my country ... secondly, you mention America losing it's moral position in the world due to the use of torture. I don't see how using tactics of humiliation and discomfort can be compared to the brutal beheadings done by the other side, which they semi-proudly (masks, after all) televise for the world to witness. So if causing someone to be naked or to remain standing up is so morally reprehensible, maybe you would prefer we adopt the practices of our enemy on this matter?
I disagree. It seems to me half the world is already quite at home with their nakedness. Some societies live naked 24/7, others where clothing is the norm have "pocket" social groups that promote the practice ... and I believe we all must endure standing from time to time. Losing our heads, on the other hand ... that's an injury not many recover from. I say ours should be the more acceptable actions, of the two...
Nice post, SRD ... couple of things ... one, I can sleep peacefully at night knowing I never committed barbaric acts on another, and that it is also not the accepted practice of my country ... secondly, you mention America losing it's moral position in the world due to the use of torture. I don't see how using tactics of humiliation and discomfort can be compared to the brutal beheadings done by the other side, which they semi-proudly (masks, after all) televise for the world to witness. So if causing someone to be naked or to remain standing up is so morally reprehensible, maybe you would prefer we adopt the practices of our enemy on this matter?
I disagree. It seems to me half the world is already quite at home with their nakedness. Some societies live naked 24/7, others where clothing is the norm have "pocket" social groups that promote the practice ... and I believe we all must endure standing from time to time. Losing our heads, on the other hand ... that's an injury not many recover from. I say ours should be the more acceptable actions, of the two...
Hello Ghost:
There have been credible reports of the torture of prisoners that actually lead to deaths under this administration with the consent of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield and Rice. (at least consent to implementing torture and subsequent knowledge that in some cases--death did occurred) And I might add that I am of the conviction that having grown men stand around naked or piled up naked on one another is emotional cruelty and has no place in our society. Hitler also began by having the Jews stand naked and piled them on top of each other and then he progressed into the most diabolical acts known through out history. Whenever we fail to identify with each other as human beings and remove all affiliation with our own humanity --the diabolical emerges from deep down within. One must nip it in the bud before such callouses began to cover the human soul and then we become capable of committing the most egregious kind of acts that would shock us --if we allow our hearts to be so darkened by hatred to the degree we can no longer see clearly and then it becomes much easier to justify every evil act we do. Evil is like a small seed that if nurtured will grow beyond measures as history continually teaches us if only we would listen.
And I maintain this perspective that if one is beheaded or killed through deliberate drowning or beat profusely to death--the end result is the same--it is all barbaric. We must abide by the Geneva Convention for our own sake of character and moral fortitude.
And two wrongs still never make it right..
This is so TRUE!!!!:)
rocky5544
05-09-2008, 07:52 AM
Hello Ghost:
There have been credible reports of the torture of prisoners that actually lead to deaths under this administration with the consent of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield and Rice. (at least consent to implementing torture and subsequent knowledge that in some cases--death did occurred) And I might add that I am of the conviction that having grown men stand around naked or piled up naked on one another is emotional cruelty and has no place in our society. Hitler also began by having the Jews stand naked and piled them on top of each other and then he progressed into the most diabolical acts known through out history. Whenever we fail to identify with each other as human beings and remove all affiliation with our own humanity --the diabolical emerges from deep down within. One must nip it in the bud before such callouses began to cover the human soul and then we become capable of committing the most egregious kind of acts that would shock us --if we allow our hearts to be so darkened by hatred to the degree we can no longer see clearly and then it becomes much easier to justify every evil act we do. Evil is like a small seed that if nurtured will grow beyond measures as history continually teaches us if only we would listen.
And I maintain this perspective that if one is beheaded or killed through deliberate drowning or beat profusely to death--the end result is the same--it is all barbaric. We must abide by the Geneva Convention for our own sake of character and moral fortitude.
The only ones following the geneva convention is us. And boo hoo did a poor terrorist loose his life during questioning, oh well! I do not care what it takes to make these scumbags talk. If it takes lining a 1000 against a well and slowly drowning them to get just one to talk, so be it. If killing their entire race makes it possible for us to live safely, pass me the gun. We are a heartbeat away from living as Isreal does, and until we are willing to use the tactics they do, our safety is in jeapordy. But I will guarantee this, when we start to see constant attacks, see our streets running with blood due to some fanatic blowing himself up in a crowded place, all these gentle treatment ideas will finally go away.
Maybe a few died under our interrogation, so sad. But it does not even compare to what these animals have done to so many. And many of their victims were not even American or from any country involved in the war. There were missionaries, children, their own people, red cross, etc who did nothing but find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. These people deserve no protection from anyone or anything. They only deserve to be dragged through the streets and shot like a rabbid dog. The Geneva convention be damned, since when did we have to concern ourselves with being the only country to follow the rules when people are being murdered each day by these animals.
Animals they are, hence they deserve no protection! When we wipe them from the face of the earth and their seed too, then the world may know some sort of peace! Until then following the rules will empower them!
To compare what the jews went through under Hitler as the same as these fanatics, is absurd. These people make it their mission to kill anyone they want to. They deserve no protection. The jews were simply living their lives when Hitler decided they no longer needed to live. You would be better off comparing the muslim fanatics to Hitler. Then you analogy would be more accurate!
GhostOfDerekD0min0
05-09-2008, 10:39 AM
Can't agree with your last contribution rocky - - somewhere buried in there you appear to be coming form the perspective of America's security and defense, obviously good and necessary - - but you took off in a direction I don't follow. I won't sign on for genocide, and I don't believe it's "us or them" at the general population level. I think there's a faction hell bent on killing us, and they need to be "educated" (preferably in classes taught by Blackhawk helicopter pilots).
I do think the world's a better place without Al Qaida and the Taliban, and I do not see any substance in people's arguments that we are on the same plane of existence as them. We were sitting in our living room, peacefully reading the newspaper, when they rang our doorbell and shoved a shit sandwich in our face when we opened the door, and stood there laughing. Not our fault they were unaware we keep a baseball bat propped in the corner by the door, and that their skull is no match for a Louisville Slugger. Only, we're not laughing. We're looking at the mess we just made on our front steps, and not enjoying the prospect of cleaning it up. Stupid bastard, what the hell was he thinking, starting trouble - - now we've got work to do.
Plus, we still got that shit all over our face ....
The only ones following the geneva convention is us. And boo hoo did a poor terrorist loose his life during questioning, oh well! I do not care what it takes to make these scumbags talk. If it takes lining a 1000 against a well and slowly drowning them to get just one to talk, so be it. If killing their entire race makes it possible for us to live safely, pass me the gun. We are a heartbeat away from living as Isreal does, and until we are willing to use the tactics they do, our safety is in jeapordy. But I will guarantee this, when we start to see constant attacks, see our streets running with blood due to some fanatic blowing himself up in a crowded place, all these gentle treatment ideas will finally go away.
Maybe a few died under our interrogation, so sad. But it does not even compare to what these animals have done to so many. And many of their victims were not even American or from any country involved in the war. There were missionaries, children, their own people, red cross, etc who did nothing but find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. These people deserve no protection from anyone or anything. They only deserve to be dragged through the streets and shot like a rabbid dog. The Geneva convention be damned, since when did we have to concern ourselves with being the only country to follow the rules when people are being murdered each day by these animals.
Animals they are, hence they deserve no protection! When we wipe them from the face of the earth and their seed too, then the world may know some sort of peace! Until then following the rules will empower them!
To compare what the jews went through under Hitler as the same as these fanatics, is absurd. These people make it their mission to kill anyone they want to. They deserve no protection. The jews were simply living their lives when Hitler decided they no longer needed to live. You would be better off comparing the muslim fanatics to Hitler. Then you analogy would be more accurate!
Hello rocky5544:
If we are the only one that abides by the Geneva Convention---then this is the price that we pay for setting high standards for ourselves as a country that classified itself as the moral beacon in the world and continually tell other countries to follow our example. Whenever anyone takes a higher ground --it demands the kind of commitment to a philosophical posture that sets the tone for the rest of the planet as the world leaders.
I am going to make a statement that at first glance may offend (although not my intention) --but nevertheless the statement is still true---one country terrorist is another country freedom fighter. We have to be very careful to guard our own heart with due diligence because by adopting the hatred of the facist militant radicals---we in fact becomes the very thing we despised---them with a western look. Please put the brakes on and proceed with tremendous caution for when Americans begin to take on the persona of the radicals Jihads---there will come a time when it will become difficult to tell us apart--from the terrorist.
Another factor to assimulate into the conversation is that it has been proven that torture does not WORK. The information secured during inflicting pain on those that are in our custody--have proved most unreliable. John Mccain, who was a recipient of torture was against this emphatically and stated that people under duress will tell you anything to make the pain stop--but the problem is "anything" may not include the truth. Senator Mccain only toned down his message once he decided to run for office although he still say that torture does not work. He should know first hand.
Again, I need to make another statement that at first glance and maybe second glance may offend (which is not my intention) however the statement is still true and although it does not excuse or justify evil conduct by those we find ourselves in battle against--we have to ask ourselves as painful as it may be---did they just woke up one morning and decided to hate us with such poisonous venom out of the blue--OR did this government with or without our full knowledge participated in conducts throughout the world that planted "revengeful seeds" that grew up and seek to strangle us--and the American people are indeed the innocent victims in this interaction--but I am not so sure about the CIA and the rest of "our" government foreign policies that has definitely shaped and mold our image in this world which has led to (God help us )--those that despise us to the degree that they are willing to die just to kill us.
And as much as God allow me the capacity to rise above the beggarly elements and as hard as it may be--I will try my utmost to see everyone that is created in the image of God as fellow human beings and not classified any people as animals fit to be exterminated--for the sake that I may make a mistake and kill one that looks like "them" but do not hold the same views and therefore become guilty of taking an innocent life and in doing so myself become the "terrorist" by any other definition.
rocky5544
05-09-2008, 05:31 PM
you still don't get it ...right is right...wrong is wrong..for anyone...
I do get it, and while i will agree their is a line that can not be crossed, we have come no where near that line. I do not care if a few terrorist have lost their lives in questioning, never will.
Here is an anology maybe that might clarify the geneva convention mentality.
Me and wayne decide to fight. A referee tells us the rules of engagement which are no weapons, no hitting below the belt, no stomping while down. I follow the rules, wayne does not. He pulls a knife, I keep mine in my belt. Now who do you think is going to bleed to death that day.
We fight a war where we are unwilling to do what is neccessary to win. Do not bomb a city cause a few women and children may die. Ask a terrorist nicely to divulge info to save our soldiers lives, God forbid we hurt them a little. Do not use the power we have because we are in an aggreement. So instead lets worry about "right" and let more of our men and women die.
In WW2 we needed to end the war so we dropped two bombs. We knew there were hundreds of thousands of women and children in the cities. We also knew there were reports of our own troops in captivity there, and yet back then we recognized the act was for the better good of all, so we nuked them. The only difference between then and now was our backbone. Leaders of countries waging war for centuries knew that in order to win a war for good, you waged war. You killed anything and everything so that their will to fight was broken for good. You killed till there was noone left to fight you again. We no longer know this and it shows. We beat them but yet keep them in power only to fight them again or deal with them indefinately.
There is no right or wrong in war. You do whatever it takes to win, keep your boys/ladies safe, and destroy their ability to fight for life even if you have to kill everyone of them to get that. Then you come home. The only wrong in war is not treating it as war and leaving behind an enemy!
If you have to slice the belly of an enemy combatant slowly open so that he spills every bit of needed info which saves just one of our soldiers lives, SO BE IT! They will do it to us and rightfully so. IT IS WAR NOT FRIENDSHIP. There should be no rules except win with the least casualties on your owns side. If the other side does not like it, who cares. We are not there to be their friends, we are there to end the war by killing enough of them they loose the stomach for it, no pun intended! We could have fought this war with the loss of very few lives, but instead we run it with more concern for a few "innocent people" and archaic engagement rules!
rocky5544
05-11-2008, 07:59 PM
Spoken like a true terroist...I don't suppose you have seen a day of combat except on TV..maybe if you had you might see things in a different light..Theres no honor in killing innocent people for any cause..
And who defines innocent, you? Cant trust your opnion, you switch to much!
And while I never served in the "war of all wars" veitnam, which you will have to wait a while before I bow at your feet for that, I did serve. I also served as a cop for 14 years! And in war any person of the enemy state is not an innocent in the strictest of terms. And when you are at war, you own soldiers are way more important than enemy civilians. If you served in Vietnam, then you above all else should know that! The stories are numerous about "innocent" civilians walking up to our boys asking for things only to detonate a grenade killing our boys. There are no innocent enemies in war, and only a fool would claim there are!
These "innocent" civilians are the same ones who are now protecting the insurgents, driving cars into school buses packed with kids, police stations, and into our own boys. There are no innocent people there until the last bomb goes off and it is over!
Think or say what you may, but war is not supposed ot be nice, clean, or fun. And you do what it takes to win and whatever it takes to save our men and womens lives! Screw any rules!
In our first war the common rule was to not shoot the officers, but we broke those rules and many times it made the difference in winning the battle due to the confusion it caused in their ranks, and loosing the battle. We had units devoted to that very thing.
I also remember that in Vietnam some dumbass decided to make rules as to where we could bomb. It allowed them to attack then retreat to these areas. These rules caused the death of many a soldier on our side. Rules create death, not honor!