Are you on drugs ???? No really! Enter any natural history museum and you can see the entire evolutionary process from single celled organisims to who we are today !!!!

Phat

really, phat? a complete evolutionary process is on display?
where...on what island, and how much is admission? i must see this!! because of all the evolutionary studies, i've not found one which has been complete in its entirety. (heard of *the MISSING link*?)
Even if the completion were made; the coupling found, there is still question of the Designer.
All Complex machinery, whether it be by man-made invention or within the cell-walls of plant life, must be "built"...
?but what/Who be the Builder?
insular reply henceforth and below
loveandblessings, paperlily

The missing link is a 19/20th century phenomina

Watch anything by David Attenbourough he will show you

If you believe in a builder, who then built the builder?

I am going to steal a fellow bloggers reply here.

Meaning is an illusion layered over the basic human instinct to search for patterns. Thats why we're such suckers for things like superstitions, lotteries, fortune telling and he like. Basically, we've taken an ability evolved to help monkeys find fruit and keep from falling out of trees and imbued it with a significance it simply doesn't deserve.

Why should life have a meaning? What is the meaning of trees? Or rain? I think a lot of people struggle with the possibility that their life might just 'be', without any deeper significance than that which hey give to themselves. Having to take responsibility for your life having any purpose or meaning, rather than ascribing it to some mysterious 'other' (God, Fate, Karma, blah) clearly scares the pants off a lot of people.

Oh yeah the British Natural history museum is free to enter and will show you the evolutionary process with no 'missing links' ..... For free!

Phat

Hello: Phat As they say it take one to know one. "That is regarding the comment if I am on drug"? Nah!! Just kidding :] You fail to see that even evolution cannot take place unless it was created by a designer. Take for example: This "cel" you are talking about that we were created from. In that cell, inside its nucleaus there is a thing call "DNA" which is the code of life. No human can be produce without this DNA. Where did this DNA come from? This block of information about what the creation will be, what it would look like etc. Why is it inside that particular cell at the very beginning of life? Do you think that cell just appeared like a magician's rabbit out of hat? No offense! Someone or something had to put it there for a reason. That someone is God!

Hi Phat: You are entitled to your opinion and so am I. I had to chuckle when you wrote, "Meaning is an illusion layered over the basic human instinct to search for patterns". Why rain, why trees"? Do you ever think what would happen to the world if there was never any rain, nor trees? You also wrote, "Having to take responsibility for your life having any purpose or meaning, rather than ascribing it to some mysterious."
What makes you think that people who have different believes from yours, who believe in a higher power, a intelligent designer, a creator or whom ever they believe as a God is and I quote, "Having to take responsibility for your life having any purpose or meaning", do not take responsibilities for the things you mentioned. As a matter of fact responsibility starts with acknowledgement that we owe that special power an explanation of what we have done with our lives. Did we learned anything when we walked the earth, did we practice giving and taking true unadulterated love of human and all earthly creation? What did we do with the world we lived in it, how did we treated? But the main questions is love. Did you have true love for humanity and the world in general? How did you treat your fellowmen? Did you help in anything where you an assets upon the earth or a destructor?
You fail to see the forrest because you are too close to the trees. Life has meaning, all things has power to give and to receive. The American Indians were very wise.They respected and loved the land.They only took what was absolutely needed for survival and saw life and power in all things. Their respect for the land was great. They did not think of the land and the created things like water, trees, animals and the like as "it" to be owned, used, discarded, destroyed at a whimp. They never thought about ownership of the land. They saw themselves as part of the land, they were not superior to creation but part of the cycle of life. Our greatest error to think we are better than all the thing God created. Heck we even think we are better than other races! Now, that is arrogance to the hilt!

Hi paperlily: You comments were absolutely correct. Blessings to you for your wisdom.

(forgive the interjection, airsjc)
in reply to phat: i know of Sir Attenbourough, but remember he is trusting the observations of animals to conclude that because of our body shape- in relationship to other creatures- his(and your) brain evolved from that of an ape-like creature where selection worked on survival mode.

Why should he (or you) trust his own *free* thoughts if they are merely movements of atoms in his brain obeying the *fixed* laws of chemistry??
Is it not much more *logical* to believe in a Designer, rather than trust the *belief* that everything came into existance from absence in some big bang by means of quantum fluctuation?

and to expound on the cell thread started by airsjc is this (credit to copy/paste):
Indeed, the genetic machinery is excellent evidence of design, and a huge problem for evolution. E.g. we have incredibly complex machines called ribosomes to read the genetic instructions on DNA, yet the instructions to build ribosomes are themselves on the DNA. And the reading requires energy in the form of ATP (and GTP), yet ATP is made by the world’s tiniest motor (ATP synthase), the instructions of which are themselves coded on DNA and read by ribosomes … vicious circles that evolutionary theory hasn’t solved.

Its just that science works on theory, experementation, data and proven facts. Religion is based upon blind faith!

Anyway this argument is pointless as you cannot bring one fact to the table and will just go upon faith.

I dont have any animosity toward religious folks just as I have no animosity toward people who believe in fairys and ghosts.

Answer this question ...... If there is a designer ..... Who designed the designer?

Phat

Well ...... I see no answers ....... I am shocked to see that Christians are unable to think!!!!! Deary me!

Paper lilly ...... 'vicious circles that evolutionary theory hasn’t solved'. Hasnt solved yet ......

Science will solve the mysteries of the universe ..... eventually ....... Religion is a myth that has no need of proof thus making it infallible ....

Religion is a crutch for a weak mind !!!

Answer my question ..... Who desighned the designer ..... dont worry I dont expect an answer as that requires some thought !!!

Phat

Posted by airsjc on 2009-04-29 11:40:38

I've just read this post thouroughly without predjiduse [however that is spelt?] and I can see you right in this point.In a way.

Native peoples understood nature much better where we tried to conquer nature and people as it is stated in the bible in Deutraonimy [however that is spelt?] "Cities that worship another god must be destroyed, every man, woman, child and get this, cattle must be slain and the city razed' INSAINE!

Oh religion has done the world wonders my friends, absolute wonders compared to science!

Phat

Still wauting for that 1 itsy bitsy answer ...... I have hundreds more that need answering when your able to think!

Phat

Hi paperlily: How are you today? No problem! I welcome somebody elses opinions. I value them wether for or against my own views. I found your statements true and accurate. Be my guest anytime you want to interject. I also know about this gentleman David Attenbourough views. Kind of funny he mentioned his name for he is an oldie from yester years.
I find that this comment by Phat, "Its just that science works on theory, experementation, data and proven facts. Religion is based upon blind faith!"
First: I love science. But to be honest not all scientist are correct. All their assumptions are based on their own perceived finds. You can ask any two scientist and they themselves do not agree 100% there is always some kind of discord. They all want to be the first in a major discovery.
The next, who designed the designer? Seems that bothers him a lot for he has mentioned before. God is the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. He is it. Take care!

Hello Phat: In answer to your question, "Who designed the designer?" First, God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. He is the first and the last. There is other designer to designed him for he is it.
Now when it comes to scientist. I love science and I am not attacking science in any shape or form. Some of their findings are correct but that does not mean that
because a scientist said so, it is so! I get the feeling you think Christians are anti-scientist. I am a Christian and I am not. I am for knowledge and discovery.
I also don't believe in ghost and fairies
-------------------------
Phat tell me why all atheist make this similar remarks: This are yours!
Religion is a myth that has no need of proof thus making it infallible ....
Religion is a crutch for a weak mind !!!
Phat:
"I find you are contradicting yourself when you say: I dont have any animosity toward religious folks just as I have no animosity toward people who believe in fairys and ghosts." This is your statement.
Yet, in these other statement you wrote...Religion is a myth that has no need of proof thus making it infallible ....
Religion is a crutch for a weak mind !!!
This shows a lot of animosity toward one particular group.

Regarding...This you mentioned. "Cities that worship another god must be destroyed, every man, woman, child and get this, cattle must be slain and the city razed' INSAINE! Is that not the totallity of war no matter what religion or what country does war they always kill everything and everyone. That is war is so ugly. Read history books and you will find that in all the wars a lot of attrocities were committed. I will get back on you on this comment later.

Why do atheist hate the idea of God so much? Why do they attack Christians beliefs so ferocity? Why not live and let live? Tell me what lays deep in your heart that you hate Christianity so much and please don't make degoratory comments on people of faith. Talk soon. Take care!

yes, phat, your animosity is indeed showing. sorry, but 'tis.
Additionally, neither airsjc, nor I can answer all of your questions. But, if you truly want to take an *objective* look into the case for/against God you will.
You are correct in saying there is no argument here to be won. It is the dilatory debate of the ages. WHY?...If there is no God, do so many unbelievers feel the need to debate it?
It is logically fallacious.
If you are truly a person of *reason* over faith, you do not spend your time debating the non-existence of something.
But, I feel, there is such a *something* within the human soul that cannot deny the existence of God. The reason being that He MADE you that way.
So, no matter how scientific, or fact-based one tries to be, they cannot escape that *something* which was pre-built within them.
The resolution to this is that they MUST argue against the idea, which pulls so strongly inside.
I will borrow a thought from a fellow blogger, tarabbac;
Each time we breathe we are acknowledging that God exists. Whether one wants to admit it or not. Simply because He designed you to breathe, each time you do, you acknowledge His purposes.
Now, I would never go as far to recommend that the atheist should henceforth hold one's breath in order to prove their theories...but...jk
Finally, if you really want to investigate this, do so, and do it completely. It's Pascal's wager...
whatta ya got to lose, by looking at the *other* info. BUT, you will just be spinning your wheels if you keep putting what *religion* has done in front of the face of God.
There is esoteric Christianity, phat, which might be better suited to your scientific mind.(The Theme of Creation and its Purpose, M. Baba) There are volumes to be read on theistic evolutionists.(God Speaks) Contained therein are better answers to the "Who designed the designer" question.
It is a QUEST and I was once where you are now. I, too, deeply appreciate Science. Funny thing is, many a great scientist found, through all of there searching, a road leading to a Creator.
Einstein himself said something like Science without God is pointless and vice verse.
Funny thing, that as Science is indeed coming closer to answers, they point more and more towards, not away from, Creationism.
loveandblessings,paperlily
Oh, and a correction to a possible Freudian slip on phat's part: "Religion is a myth that has no need of proof, thus making it infallible"
Infallible; not capable of making mistakes; not capable of failing; never wrong.
My bad, friend, but I just wouldn't want you to run around touting religion's *infallibility*

Hello paperlily: You know I find it hard not to imagine the flower lily in gorgeous colored paper. It must be beautiful! Going back to Phat, I read in his comment how he says he shows no prejudices but then he attacks Christians and their faith. What I don't understand how a man can live as long as he have without faith. We all know that faith is one of the key ingredients in our society. It has been there since creation of men/women. First: We all have some kind of faith: either in God, or false gods, men and their works. When I drive my car over a body of water, usually a river, right there it requires my faith. Of course, my faith is places in God, that he will get me over to the other side safe. At one time, in my younger years, I used to be afraid of driving on a bridge over water and I mean really scarred. Till, one day I put my trust in God and just believed that he will watch over my safety.
Every single person upon the face of the earth puts their faith on something or someone.When we get in an airplane some pray if they believe in God, if they don't they hope that the craft is safe, the pilot is not drunk or on drugs as is able to fly and land the aircraft. Same thing with a ship over the ocean, driving a car, when seeing a doctor for a malady, when eating at a restaurant. All things you do require a certain amount of faith. If you did not have faith you will be overcomed by your fears and unable to function. So, it baffles me that Phat is so much against faith. Faith in a creator. Talk soon!

Hello Phat: Here is another one of your comments that I like to respond to. "religion has done the world wonders my friends, absolute wonders compared to science!" Phat you are right when it comes to religions blunders, cruelties and attocities. But whta you do not see is that (religion) is man made, not God made. True followers of Christ God, are not religious people. No more than a quack duck insisting he is an mighty eagle. They are both animals, both fly, very similar in many ways, but different. Their nature born behaviour is different while the ducks paddle in water, the eagle flies in the skies, the duck eats diferent things than and eagle. The eagle is a predatory bird. The same goes with religion and Christianity, (followers of Jesus Christ). I try follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I do not follow man made religion. If you read about Jesus Christ who was a Jew while he walked the earth, you can see that he never followed the Jewish religion or dictations of the Sanhedrin, Pharasies or those so called teachers on high post in the temple. Jesus followed only God's instructive way of life which was based on love. I hope that clears it up a bit.

Ok airsjc thanks for that and yes I do get angry at some religious folks who deny obvious truths as evolution and the such and I get flusterd when religion stops human advancement throughout history.

God is the Alpha and the Omega ....... Where is your data and facts? This sounds like blind and sorry to say ignorant faith ........ yet again.

Anyways this argument is pointless.

Thankyou anyways ....

Phat

Hi Phat: You wrote" "angry at some religious folks who deny obvious truths as evolution". Why would that make you angry? Whose evolutions truth? Yours? Can you prove that evolution is the truth? I know you mention the "cell" but did you ever question where this cell came from? Is it one cell that is responsible in evolving all living things on earth or are there other cells? How did these cells arrived in our planet? Where did they come from? Why planet Earth?
Are these cells still appearing out of nothing and keep repeating cycles of evolution? Where are the original creations these cells attached themselves to or evolved from?
Referring to God proves of existance and beginnings, this I say. My answers come from the Bible which I came to believe is the written word of God.
You see Phat, as you asked me I ask you for proof.
I bid you good bye! I want you to know that I wish you peace, love and happiness. Airs