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| So will Christians go through the Tribulation?
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By YWGO
*According to scripture, YES! All those that live Godly will suffer..2 Tim 3:12
The words of Jesus found in Matthew 24 give a chronological order of the events to happen before, during, and at the end of the tribulation:
*Who is He addressing as the “elect”? Answer- Christians
*Who is living during the suffering and being warned? Answer- elect: Christians
*No “secret rapture” out of the suffering for Christians (elect) noted anywhere.
TRIBULATION AND SUFFERING
1. Many will come claiming to be the Christ. (v5)
2. There will wars and rumors of war, but the end is yet to come (v6)
3. Nation will rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom (v7)
4. Famines and earthquakes (v7)
5. The Abomination of Desolation spoken in Daniel will occur (v15)
6. People of Judea must flee to the mountains (v16)
7. FOR THEN, there will be great suffering like never before or ever will be again (v21)
8. Don’t believe those who are saying Christ is over there (v23)
9. False Christ and False Prophets will appear and perform great miracles that could deceive the elect, if it were possible. (v24)
RAPTURE or Ressurection of the DEAD and Living transformed into CHRIST's likeness:
10. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE SUFFERING, the sun will be darkened, moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven. (v29)
11. THEN, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in Heaven arriving on the clouds (v30)
12. He will send his angels with a LOUD TRUMPET blast to collect his people (v31)
Book of Revelation reveals who will Suffer for Christ
In Rev. chapter 7, God puts a seal on a small group of Israel called the 144,000. Because of this seal, they are protected. The woman (Israel) is protected in the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation (Rev. 12:13-17). This act makes the dragon (Satan) angry, so he goes after the children of the woman in v-17, those who have "the testimony of Jesus Christ- “Christians”. As an Inset to CHAPTER 12 from Chapter 7:13-17- "After (the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish multitude) John beheld a great multitude of all nations who came out of the great tribulation. They are the Christians. This is an example is of what is called an inset which flashbacks to an event to show how an end event it came to be.
John 17:15-19 notes, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." KJV. These verses show that Jesus did not want us Christians taken out of the world in order to protect us from evil but had the intention of preservation in the midst of it.
Throughout scripture, we see the Christ and His NT writers encouraging the church to ‘endure’ through suffering and telling them to overcome.
(Matthew 10:16-36, ch 24: 13, ch 13: 20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3;5,12,21.)
Take up the Cross
Matt. 10:38, 16:24; Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, 14:27
“ Jesus said, "he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
Christians must expect to suffer for Christ
Rom. 5:2-3 - more than rejoicing in our hope, we rejoice in our sufferings which produce endurance, character and hope. Through faith, suffering brings about hope in God and, through endurance, salvation.
Rom. 8:17 - we are heirs with Christ, but only if we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.
Rom. 8:18 - the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well. If we unite our sufferings with His, we will be comforted by Him.
2 Cor. 4:10 –we always carry in the body the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. Christ has allowed room in His Body for our sufferings, and our sufferings allow room for Christ to bring us to life.
2 Cor. 4:11 - while we live we are always being given up to death for Jesus' sake so that His life may be manifested in our flesh.
2 Cor. 12:9-10 - Jesus' grace is sufficient, for His power is made perfect in weakness. If we are weak, we are strong in Christ.
Eph. 3:13 - Do not to lose heart over my sufferings for your glory.
Phil. 1:29 - for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake.
Phil. 3:10 - desire to share in Christ's sufferings in order to obtain the resurrection.
2 Thess. 1:5 - we may be made worthy of the kingdom of God for which we are suffering.
2 Tim. 1:8 - share in suffering for the Gospel.
2 Tim. 2:3 - take our share of sufferings as a good soldier in Christ.
*2 Tim. 3:12 - all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
2 Tim. 4:5 - endure suffering to fulfill his ministry.
1 Peter 1:6 - we may have to suffer various trials.
1 Peter 2:19-21 - called to endure pain while suffering for Christ, our example.
1 Peter 4:1-2 - whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin to live not by the flesh but by the will of God.
1 Peter 4:13 - rejoice in Christ's sufferings in order to rejoice and be glad when Christ's glory is revealed.
1 Peter 4:16 - if we suffer as Christians, we should not be ashamed but glorify God.
1 Peter 5:10 - after we have suffered, the God of all grace will restore, establish and strengthen us.
Suffering for Christ is real faith in action to our eternal life in Christ. It cannot be avoided. For the sake of the Gospel, it is to be embraced as a testimony of our love and faithfulness to Him.
References:
Holy Bible:
1. NET translation (KJV)
2. King James Version (KJV)
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Posted by YWGO on 2008-03-20 22:26:17 | Rating: | Views: 157
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Actually, you are a little of base. People who have accepted Christ prior to the tribulation will not go through it. There are many verses to back up this theory. The verses you have used refer to those who accept Christ during the tribulation.
The suffering you refer to also never points to end times, nor does it refer to physical suffering only. Suffering can be many things from denying self to death and every where in between.
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Posted by rocky5544
on 2008-04-03 00:22:55
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It is already late in "the days" to argue any endtime points. No use in it. There is "no theories" in scripture. What will happen, will happen based His words; not ours. We simply just don't agree. You have your view and I have mine.
If your view is right you have nothing to lose. On the other hand, If your view wrong, I just hope you are prepared and stregthen yourself in the Holy Spirit beyond mere words of endtime speculation.
This is serious business that is ahead of all of us. Everyone must study to understand and be prepared. If you don't beleive my view. You just don't. I respect that. Many blessings.
The scriptures noted above are meant to encourage Christians to stand firm through those days ahead. Many Blessings.
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Posted by YWGO
on 2008-04-03 14:16:14
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And I respect yours, and please do not take offense, I think it is very healthy for Chritians to bantor back and forth. But the problem with your statement is that it completely contradicts the truth of the Bible. It runs along the same lines as loss of salvation which is preached from many a pulpit. As a sinful human, how could we ever be assured of our salvation if we constantly loose it. That message has turned so many off to God and so will the thought that Chritains will suffer along with sinners.
The tribulation is not intended to punish, at least not till the very end. It is to be the worlds last chance at redemption although very few will be saved. Notice the word does not refer to chritians in the end time except for the 144000 who will evangalize. There are many verses that clearly point to the rapture of Christians prior to the 7 years of tribulation like the one that says that there will be two men in the field, one will be taken away leaving the other behind. Many scholars also point to the sudden rapture of the two prophets as a fortelling of what is to be and that they will be the two prophets reffered to in Revelations.
And I used the wrong word, theory, youare absolutely correct as to there are no theories. But before you write things like this, I suggest that you dive into scriptures and find more info. Rev 7 shows exactely why the tribulation will happen. If salvation is a gift to those who accept it, then we will not be here in the end. If it is earned and must be proven, then we will be here. It cannot be one and the same. Since God clearly states that the tribulation is for a last chance redemption for those who have rejected him, then it is not trial by fire for us. But for those who have rejected Christ till the end, but have accepted his grace after the rapture, Life will be Hell, and they will face more persecution than any chritain prior.
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Posted by rocky5544
on 2008-04-03 20:24:13
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Thanks for respect. I run into many agressively disrepectful people online. Someone flagged all my post as if it was obscene. I think this was off base and weird. I know people that worship the earth and devils and their stuff isn't flagged. Whew!
I think we can clarify our thoughts, not argue. I'd like to get out of here too like you, but the weight of what I studied shows different.
I been in this endtime thing a long time and disagee with your view and think is just wishful thinking by John Darby, a young girl and two Catholic theologions in the 1700-1800's and modern pop Christianity. Many of the early Catholic and Protestant theologians did not teach pre-trib rapture based on what I studied.
Your right the tribulation(suffering) is not intended to punish believers but we know many Christians will die like the early church did. Notice later the real wrath is poured out. God is not going to let the advesary have a nice day down here ruling his planet and masquerading ...etc.
Read the trumpets and seals in revelations. What takes place between them.
Rev 7 shows alot more than just 144,000 being sealed. There is also chapter 14 and what is called insets or falshbacks to events going on about Israel, the Tribulation(suffering) of the saints by the dragon (just like the early church) and infers some protected in hiding. It does not say anywhere I read the church was raptured. (except Modern American Oral tradition of scripture) There are those under the throne of God whom were martyred in heavan. Many people in the modern age have outsourced their studies to people instead of studying it themselves and lining it up. I will take no ones word on what something means, especially if it's this serious.
As you told me, I return this also, I suggest you dive into the topic not based the view that your Oral tradition is right all the time. I understand your point of view. Been there. You use Proofteting of scriptures to reason Pre-trib, not contextual reading and correlation. Matthew 24 is in Chronological order as well as other Gospel Hints to that period of time in Revelation. You have to also use OT prophecies and anthropological understanding also to correlate the events.
Last chance redemption does not infer a pre-trib rapture as far as I see. Salvation as a gift does not correlate with the test and trials of life for a specific period of time God has ordained. I'm sure the Christians in the early church did not use that argument or the ones being martyred to day. Faith without works is dead. The theif acknowledged Christ in faith, others had to endure. So we don't chose our life in Christ, Jesus does.
If the great falling away is to happen, How many Christians will die for Jesus right now...if people find out they have to endure the times, what will they turn too....
Dr Gavin Finley does an expert write up on the subject using alot more scriptures than me. You can look it up if you want.
I appreciate your honesty. I don't find that much anymore in Christianity. I also appreciate the dialogue and respect your thoughts.
Because of the times we live in, We have to pray for one another. If your view is right, I'll gladly see you in the air and we'll take seat looking down, if your wrong, then please study it out for yourself and warn others.
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Posted by YWGO
on 2008-04-04 13:43:02
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Ty for your friendly response, and yes you are right to many Christians fight rather than discuss. And to whoever flagged you, I hope they soon find peace in Christ.
Now back to the issue. Darby is the one who brought the idea of the rapture of the church to the mainstream, but it was not a new idea. And again I misspoke, yes there will be more than 144000 saved during the end times. But the 144000 is the beginning and are to be the evangalists during these times. But again through careful study of the Bible and the predictions of the end times leads most scholars to believe that current christian will be gone due to many verses and comments, but here are a few.
First, there are a few phases to the end times. There is the period leading up to the end times where we will see God's predictions coming true....War rumors of war, the reinstatement of isreal, etc. These are Gods final warnings his mercy is coming to an end.
Then the rapture(or in your case the beginning of the end).
Then the trumpets, seals, 7 years, etc. This will be a time of great horror where man will have a short window to accept Christ. Once the seal of satan is taken, the persons fate is sealed...no possible redemption.
Then the great battle
Then final judgement
In the midst if this you have the 1000 year rule...the release of satan etc. But to list everything I would have to start a new blog...lol.
But again, the bible shows for most to see that we who are saved will be spared the horror of what is going on. No longer are we needed here. God will show himself through the horror(judgement)
The end times are different from the final days. We will be here to see the beginning up to the trumpets, seals, etc. But we will not face the judgement of the world( or their last chance).
Revelations speaks many times as to why God is bringing such pain to the world. It is mentioned many times that it is for redemption of those who choose finally to accept. It never mentions, not once his current church. Revelations is so meaningful and discriptive. Why would Christ warn the world of what is coming, and yet not once mention that his current followers will be involved in this mess.
Again, you are quite intelligent and articulate. Way above me, but sometimes we try to read too much into Gods word and try to find the DEEP meaning to what is said when the whole time simplicity was smacking us in the face. Christ tells us through revelations that the horror is Gods last grasp at his beloved that have rejected him. It is nothing more than the holy wrath of God to all of those who have failed to accept Christ, it is not for us. To suffer for Christ is gain, but to suffer due to Gods wrath because the world rejected Christ is not our purpose. You and I can thank God for our amazing gift of salvation and that because we accepted his gift, we will miss the horror of the end.
But I agree that while we may not be at the end of days door, we are close. And the day draws near where many will perish for their rejection of Christ. Our chances to minister to the unsaved is coming to an end!
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Posted by rocky5544
on 2008-04-05 00:32:59
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Appreciate the pre-trib/ post trib dialouge. I see many of your points and agree whole hardly with many of them. I think it's just how we both place the events and the differance in level's of study.
This is a basic conversation compared to people I have conversed wih whom have Christ Kingdom now beliefs take over the world , Global Anti-Christ religions, Social Science Greek Theology, and Peace now "we are the world" false Christianity. All have Oral Torah outside of the word of God. Their beliefs are peppered with Serpant Garden theology-" Has God said"? Answer: Amen, He has for eternity!
No I am not above anyone. LOL We all have to grow in sanctification and understanding. It's just plain study and lining things up. If this discussion leads to you studying harder your Torah-(God's instructions) and a deeper relationship with YAHUSHUA(Jesus) then Halleu"YAH". iron sharpens iron-Proverbs
I think many people have outsourced their understanding to Western American New Age tradition and are stuck there. When they encounter these teachings,their like wha? If you really sit down and study from a strictly biblical hermeritical understanding with Strongs concordance, Hebrew anthropological findings and other tools to look up words used, you'll find "no" two 2nd commings. Again if you have time check (Dr Gavin Finely)
If you look up my other posts on endtime, you'll see basic scriptures that clearly make the case outside of any Oral tradition.
I agree with what you say about God's Holy wrath."Whew". However, pre to those times of His wrath will be suffering of some time " perhaps this is where many hold the view of (Mid)trib also. So all we need is one of those guys or gals preaching in here too. LOL. smile.
Nobody likeS suffering, but the Persecuted church today is surely living that maryterdom early Christianity. How great will their glory be when they stand and reign with Christ. Bless their example to the comfortable western church.
I think that this internet may be the last outlet for the Besorah (Gospel) of Christ. Outside of Ham radio etc.
I thank YAH(God) everyday that He gave me the oppurtunity to know His Son and the saving name of His Son-Jesus-(Lateinized Greek)-YAHSHUA +YESHUA (Hebrew). The more we grow in ourstanding of Him, the more we can overcome anything.
I meet so many hard hearts in many sects of religion whom claim beleif in God, but when you have dialogue they claim they can save themselves or His atonement is not Kosher enough.
All I know is, It's more than enough for me. I live and speak from that perspective. (Jesus's Christatonement and ressurection)
1. What is your view of the millineum world or reign of Christ? I read George Otis Sr.'s book and I thought it was pretty good foresight.
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Posted by YWGO
on 2008-04-06 12:04:31
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Well i have enjoyed our bantor. I am not that up to date with the 1000 year rule. Only that those who find salvation during the tribulation and survive will rule with Christ, have children, etc. Their children will have to accept Christ just as we do. I believe if they have not by age 100, they will die!
But as far as the rest of what we have discussed, we will have to agree to disagree. I can post a ton of verses that back up my views as you have posted for yours. It is your blog so i will not.
But I did notice that you called us who believe in pre tribulation rapture false prophets. In the future, maybe you should refine that statement. Our disagreements on a subject like that does not fit the mold of false prophet. For instance, many pastors and church members have argued the fact as to weather or not christians may drink. Both sides have valid arguments, and both might not be wrong. Christ says that he gives freedom in Christ to his followers and each person will be given his own commands from God. God knows that I had issues with alcohol on the past, so I am convicted not to drink, but for you he may allow you to enjoy a drink.
False prophets are strictly defined in the word of God, and neither of us fall into that catagory. Jim baker did. Do you get what I mean.
Neither of us is God nor do we know all. So we have relied on our own readings and what we have been taught to decide what we believe. Since either of our theories could be right, wrong, or a little of both makes us simply earthly Chritian. Because of sin we do not have the knowledge that God intended for us so we are blind. No matter what side of this argument you fall on, it does not matter as it will not decide your place in heaven. Gods word makes it clear that the only way to heaven is to accept christ as your personal savior. You can not earn your way there prior to salvation or after. In fact it says all of our works are as dirty rags. many christians fall to the wayside and even die living away from Christ. They will still see heaven, but as tearfully and heartbroken men or women because they will stand in the prescense of the almighty god who died for them. But because of the blood of Christ, they will be accepted. Hence the rewards and crowns for the works you have done, but even those we lay back at his feet because what we have done does not stand up to what he has done!
Please by all means, confront those who are trully false prophets. Those who teach ungodliness from their pulpit or from their mouth. Such as, there is no hell, all go to heaven, Christ was not born of a virgin, etc. There are absolute truths that are not up for discussion, and for anyone to teach otherwise, they are a false prophet. But for all the other areas, they are grey and everyone will develop their own interpretation as to what they see and read. Hopefully they go to prayer to find what they believe, but their difference from your belief does not make them false prophets.
Keep strong, we will see each other on these boards again. I will post my verses soon as to why i believe we will be raptured. Come by and comment!!
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Posted by rocky5544
on 2008-04-08 00:35:12
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Thanks for your reply. I Think that the scriptures outline absolute truth and there are some that may appear to be grey to those that need further growth and spiritual sanctification to understand them. All I know is from what I study and the tools that were given to me. I certianly do not doubt them.
I don't consider people whom don't know the full truth bad and speak from being taught Oral tradition, but if it isn't in line with basic doctrine it is false.
I pray for them hoping they will come to the understanding that was given to me. If They don't then, it's between them and Jesus.
I agree as long as a person is getting other's saved in the blood of Jesus, through repentance of sins, belief in his death burial and ressurection and Holy Spirit indwelling, we dont have any issues. Love is the key in any life before Christ.
Today's Christianity is full of false conversions whom are ripe for the anti-christ. They are really weak in their faith and knowledge of the word of God.
I am for sure that the times will tell it all whom is correct in pre-mid and post.
Again, thank you so much for your thoughts and encouragement in these end days.
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Posted by YWGO
on 2008-04-08 16:20:35
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