Interesting. Scary on many levels. In one sense a person should use
whatever advantages they have at their disposal in order to be 'successful'
but on the other hand, what you mention above feels more like a form of
deceit to me.

Re: the religion you mention - it scares me. I knew someone who left that
'church' and has stories to tell about the experience - and the 'slavery'.

Yeah there's a lot of truth and fiction surrounding Scientology, sadly not much of either is very flattering to the organization. I just think they fail the test of religion and I don't know how to describe it just yet but....

So that's why I wrote this to help me figure the definable line between worship & enterprise. As I don't have the 1st clue as to how to test for validity in a religion.

'Is it wrong to manipulate people' I think the answer is obvious.

It appears obvious on the surface but, as desinq points out just about every thing we do in our life is some form of manipulation from teaching a child good manners, to twisting a potential spouse to check their intent & getting in front of a camera and out right lying to the people who voted you in to office. So manipulation can't be as bad as it appears, it has to have some just usage after all ostensibly prison & rehab manipulate people to better fit into society or at least survive in it. I n a recent blog you advised reward the positive & try to ignore the negative which is manipulation 101 but, it's purpose is nobel so that seems to make it good. I think it goes back to Kung Fu theater, "Grass hopper you are not yet ready to know the phoenix palm of death?" there are ethics involved in teaching these techniques similar to those involved in selling a gun.

No trying to ignore the negative and praise the positive is being honest about one's perceptions; whereas manipulation involves an element of deceit. It is the lack of honesty that makes manipulation immoral.

I get the difference in connotation but mechanically they're the same they seek to create a pattern of behavior which is predictable in those around us by utilizing the tools we've chosen.

The same way killing your date is wrong but killing your assailant isn't.

Then again, we all manipulate. Which brings me back to a conversation I had this morning. If there is no god only a greater good as perceived by people and if it's the unavoidable consequence of the activity of people that appears to be bringing the globe unstuck then if it were to the purpose of annihilation of the human population then would any act including as in this case ;manipulation' be acceptable, in an ethical sense, that is. Definitely not in a moral sense.
A case or more a question in point would be; 'Is it appropriate to manipulate the consensus with in a given population to halt the practise of say, female genital mutilation?'
NLP, body language for the ambitious.

exactly the conundrum I'm exploring.

NLP is so much more than just body language there's a whole vocabulary that goes with it, the attention to the slightest detail is what's scary it's a level of attention that in my opinion borders into psychotic obsession, and definitely qualifies for simply "acting" with a purpose or being a con-artist.

used to read hubbard when he just wrote sci- fi.. total crap. he was a lousy writer- but an even worse guru. manipulation is one of those two edged swords.. manipulate not..lest ye be manipulated..

He wasn't the worst I'd ever read but he lacked the reality of Azimov or the drama of Bradbury but, he was occasionally funny and in my opinion was no worse than Roddenberry. I agree that as a philosopher he was less than stellar but, damn if Tom Cruise doesn't like him in a jump up & down on Opera kind of way.

Yep reminds me of trying to split a piece of green wood sometimes the maul bounces right back at your head, if you don't swing just right.